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This is funny, but just to be clear, the firms that are doing automated trading have been using ML for decades and have high powered computers with custom algorithms extremely close to trading centers (often inside them) to get the lowest latency possible.
No one who does not wear their pants on their head uses an LLM to make trades. An LLM is just a next word fragment guesser with a bunch of heuristics and tools attached, so it won’t be good at all for something that specialized.
I hate that ai just means llm now. ML can actually be useful to make predictions based on past trends. And it’s not nearly as power hungry
Yeah, especially it is funny how people forgot that even small models the size of like 20 neurons used for primitive NPCs in a 2D games are called AI too and can literally run on a button phone(not Nokia 3310, something slightly more powerful). And these small ones specialized models exist for decades already. And the most interesting is that relatevly small models(few thousands of neurons) can work very well in predicting trends of prices, classify objects by their parameters, calculate chances of having specific disease by only symptoms and etc. And they generally work better than even LLMs in the same task.
Do you have an example of some games that use small neural networks for their NPC AIs? I was under the impression that most video game AIs used expert systems, at least for built-in ones.
Well, for what I know, modern chess engines are relatevly small AI models that usually work by taking on input the current state of the board and then predicting the next best move. Like Stockfish. Also, there is a game called Supreme Commander 2, where it is confirmed of usage small neural models to run NPC. And, as a person that somewhat included in game development, I can say that indie game engine libgdx provides an included AI module that can be fine tuned to a needed level for running NPC decisions. And it can be scaled in any way you want.
As I understand, chess AIs are more like brute force models that take the current board and generate a tree with all possible moves from that position, then iterating on those new positions up to a certain depth (which is what the depth of the engine refers to). And while I think some might use other algorithms to “score” each position and try to keep the search to the interesting branches, that could introduce bias that would make it miss some moves that look bad but actually set up a better position, though ultimately, they do need some way to compare between different ending positions if the depth doesn’t bring them to checkmate in all paths.
So it chooses the most intelligent move it can find, but does it by essentially playing out every possible game, kinda like Dr Strange in Infinity War, except chess has a more finite set of states to search through.
Maybe. I haven’t studied modern chess engines so deeply. All I know that you either can use the brute force method that will calculate in recursion each possible move or train an AI model on existing brute force engines and it will simply guess the best possible move without actually recalculating each possible. Both scenarios work with each one having its own benefits and downsides.
But all of this is said according to my knowledge which can be incomplete, so recommend to recheck this info.
Black and white used machine learning If I recall absolutely a classic of a game highly recommend a play if you never have. Dota 2 has a machine learning based ai agent for its bots. Tho I’m unsure if those are actually in the standard game or not.
Forza and a few other racing games though out the years have used ML to various degrees.
And hello neighbor was a rather infamously bad indie game that used it.
For a topical example arc raiders used machine learning to train its AI during development. Tho it doesn’t run on the live servers to keep updating it.
For LLM examples where the wind meets is using small LLMs for its AI dialogue interactions. Which makes for very fun RP mini games.
I’m sure there’s more examples but these are what I can think of and find off Google.
They are the same.
What’s most annoying to me about the fisasco is that things people used to be okay with like ML that have always been lumped in with the term AI are now getting hate because they’re “AI”.
What’s worse is that management conflates the two all the time, and whenever i give the outputs of my own ML algorithm, they think that it’s an LLM output. and then they ask me to just ask chat gpt to do any damn thing that i would usually do myself, or feed into my ml to predict.
? If you make and work with ml you are in a field of research. It’s not a technology that you “use”. And if you give the output of your “ml” then that is exactly identical to an llm output. They don’t conflate anything. Chat gpt is also the output of “ml”
when i say the output of my ml, i mean, i give the prediction and confidence score. for instance, if there’s a process that has a high probability of being late based on the inputs, I’ll say it’ll be late, with the confidence. that’s completely different from feeding the figures into a gpt and saying whatever the llm will say.
and when i say “ml” i mean a model I trained on specific data to do a very specific thing. there’s no prompting, and no chatlike output. it’s not a language model
Yeah but there is no fundamental difference for you to use any language stack and train it on the same data
Nope, same tech
Which crayon color has the best flavor?
Green but yellow is good every like third one
ML and other algorithms have also been used by firms who do none automatic trading like since before 2000 too
but they just use it as part of the decision making process
last time i looked, around like 2020, all the fully automated headfunds that said they will be use ai for trading, failed and did not beat the market tho
(high frequency trading is not what i mean tho, i think high frequency trading is what you mean)
LLMs are great for interactive NPCs in video games. They are bad at basically everything else.
The best use I’ve gotten out of GPT is troubleshooting Rimworld mod list errors, often I’ll slap the error in and it’ll tell me exactly which mod is the issue, even when it can’t the info I get back narrows it down to 4 or 5 suspects
The investors must be very proud.
I know right? Billions of dollars for rimworld tech help. Though it understands that far better than the time I tried to see if it knew GURPS, it was hilariously bad at mechanics, did give me an interesting skill idea I hadn’t considered for my isekaid wizard, turns out the Teaching skill is really important when the game becomes about starting a wizard school
No one who does not wear their pants on their head uses an LLM to make trades
LMMs are better than other methods at context and nuance for sentiment analysis. They can legitimately form part of trade generation.
Eh… Wdym. The algos that trade fight in the micro second level. They adapt to each other and never stop changing. It’s exactly the same problem. Do you think llm is a unique neural net ? They all work the same. When you try to sound like ml is not the same as llm or as if ml is neural nets you don’t help anyone understand any of those concepts because you don’t yourself
That is a crazy amount of nonsensical word salad to use to try to call someone else out for lacking understanding.
I mean just the flawed idea that all trading algos are all neural nets, or that all neural nets are the same or that the rectangle of ML doesn’t include neural nets… These are all wildly erratic non sequiturs.
Nope, but you know it if you have some knowledge so
When people say they use AI for stock trading, they don’t mean LLMs. There are stock AI models that have existed long before LLMs
i bet you some do!
Good catch… lol
they would blow up their accounts real quick
I bet you some do!
Except exactly nobody calls those “AI”… So no
You’re absolutely right. I’ve now read your CSV data, and made new trade recommendations. By coincidence, they are the same as the last recommendations, but this time they are totally valid.
Ma! I need you to withdraw your retirement fund.
I read that in Cliff Clavin’s voice.
If a goldfish can trade and turn a profit, anything with a randomizer can do so.
AI would be fine. Just as good as any full time trader.
Sorry 😜, I was trying to generate a seahorse emoji.
🐬 There we go, a seahorse!
Wait, that’s wrong. Sorry 😜, I was trying to generate a seahorse emoji.
🐳 Haha, got it, its a seahorse!
Oh no, not again. Wait, that’s wrong. Sorry 😜, I was trying to generate a seahorse emoji.
🐙 I finally did it! Seahorse achieved!
No, what’s wrong with me, why can’t I do anything right?. Oh no, not again. Wait, that’s wrong. Sorry 😜, I was trying to generate a seahorse emoji.
“Do you want to know more about CSV files or investing?”
Average r/WSB thread
they dont need AI to lose 99%
I tried to get one to write an interface to a simple API, and gave it a link to the documentation. Mostly because it was actually really good documentation for a change. About half a dozen end points.
It did. A few tweaks here and there and it even compiled.
But it was not for the API I gave it. Wouldn’t tell me which API it was for either. I guess neither of us will ever know.
Cry for help, it was trying to get you to interface with its own API, to either fix it, or end it.
I’ve actually used chat GPT (or was it Cursor? I dont remember now) to help write a script for a program with a very (to me, a non-programmer) convoluted, but decently well documented API.
it only got a few things right, but the key was that it got enough right for me to go and fix the rest. this was for a task I’d been trying to do every now and then for a few years. was nice to finally have it done.
but damn, does “AI” ever suck at writing the code I want it to. or maybe I just suck at giving prompts. idk. one of my bosses uses it quite a bit to program stuff, and he claims to be quite successful with it. however, I know that he barely validates the result before claiming success, so… “look at this output!” — “okay, but do those numbers mean anything?” — “idk, but look at it! it’s gotta be close!”
“Hmm… I’m good with statistics, scripting, and I have some extra cash on hand…”
“I can just mix all these into the cauldron, stir it up a lil bit, aaand…”
“oh my god it’s gone. it’s all gone. i owe money now…”
“Guhh”
I just looked at my sister’s vibe coding projects and all I see are errors in the logs from param issues. I really want her to succeed but her over reliance on Cursor isn’t it
I just want to make this edit… She started building physical plastic cubicles for her office a month ago, and they are still unfinished. They are a clip and snap type and it causes her a headache to put it together. Most of her time, she’s unemployed rn, is devoted to making AI slop above all other outlets.
I haven’t touched LLMs in a few months and hate the way Brave and DuckDuckGo now implemented them into their search engines.
This thing is broken. It keeps telling me to just dollar cost average and not do chart astrology at all!
I’ve had this happen where I fed it some ebooks and the responses it pulled were nonsense. Eventually I pulled JUST the knowledge stack and queried it, only to find it spitting back garbage.
Turns out, epub processing had been broken for a while, but nobody noticed… And they still haven’t fixed it, so I have to convert them to txt first…
Wasn’t there an article that looked at and showed that no, there are no stock market specialists. An “experienced” stock trader was just as accurate in their predictions as regular Joe that’s just guessing. In that sense LLM should be just as effective (if not more) at making profit.
No, they have stock market experts.
Its like astrology.
You have to be good at bullshitting
Guess what an llm is good at…
You can never predict the stock market, because the market depends on a lot of outside influences you might not know about. Maybe some disaster wipes out the only supplier for a critical part of your top performing stock tomorrow, so he cannot deliver goods anymore. Maybe a single big investor dumps all his stock overnight, sending the value down. Maybe some law or sanction is passed that changes how the company must operate. Maybe some other trading bot decides to buy or sell a huge number of shares.
No computer or AI can account for all of the outside factors and accurately predict the outcome each time. Each “Trading AI” is just snake oil that lives of your fees and commissions. If it was working as advertised, they would not need your money, but could make infinite riches by just trading their own stocks.
I mean, you’re have to be pretty good to lose that hard… or buy penny stocks or something.
In all fairness, it would be some kind of custom Neural Network designed to try and predict market movements (having been trained with past market data as well as things like counts of specific words in news articles and social media posts within a certain time frame) rather than an LLM.
Neural Networks are pretty good at spotting patterns in masses of data which people can’t easilly spot.
Of course, there must be a pattern there which doesn’t change much over time of certain things happening with more probability after certain other combinations of things, for it to actually beat the market, plus it also massivelly depends on the inputs it’s formatted to take (which a human is deciding rather than the NN itself, though maybe the technique used in LLMs of having huge dimensionality in terms of inputs and internal layers might work well there so that it can take “everything but the kitchen sink” as inputs).
And then, there is of course the “small” risk that it might work fine for months/years under normal market conditions at doing what is essentially “picking nickles in front of a steamroller” - i.e. making low value gains in a nice reliable away for as long as normal market conditions are happening, but when conditions change getting totally splattered - whilst because of the whole black-box nature of NNs the humans don’t recognize the convoluted technique it has converge to use through training, as that kind of risky strategy.
That said, unlike an LLM at least a custom NN wouldn’t come up with a “you’re so right” excuse when the human tells it of the massive losses it incurred.
Trading firms have been using ML and Neural Nets for trading and investment insight for ages before the current LLM “AI” boom started. I knew someone working in that space on investment derivatives in the mid 2010s.
You don’t really need to speculate on it. It’s old news. This is just a joke about how there’s a new crop of suckers who are absolutely using LLMs for stock advice.
Makes sense.
I left the Finance Industry at about the time when ML in machine trading was just starting to be thought about and never got involved in it (or even Machine Trading) so I wasn’t sure it was happening, but knowing what I know of the industry it makes total sense that they would at least try it out since they have tons of in-house developers and can afford to pay a lot for domain-relavant expertise.
PS: Also for example things like Neural Networks have been in used since the 90s in other domains and Finance seems to take around a decade or decade and a half to catch up to Tech in terms of Software.
It’s true that NNs are strong at spotting patterns in masses of data, but trading is a particularly hard problem for this kind of task because the market constantly adapts to its participants. If other traders have found a pattern, it will already be priced in when you try to make money off it, and your strategy will fail. And since trading is a worldwide competition with billions of dollars to be won, you are naturally competing against teams of the best of the best who are willing to put massive resources into their algorithm development, computing, and data acquisition. Therefore the chances for someone like us to find an algorithm that systematically beats them is very low.
So for any young math/CS nerd who comes across this thread and wants to try their luck, be aware of the difficulty before you invest any real money, and learn about the merits of passive investing.
Yeah, thanks for pointing that out.
I kind approached it in another post I made here about this when I mentioned that “all the human perceived patterns have already been spotted and arbitraged away” as part of explaining why NNs would end up with convoluted opaque strategies, but only thought about “and existing NNs operating on the Market probably do the same for NN-level strategies” without actually writing it.
By the way, my post isn’t meant to support people making NNs to trade, it’s just a bit of blue sky thinking from somebody with some expertise in both worlds and barely begins to dig into the problems of it, thus not covering things - such as you pointed out - like how safe and reliable market strategies (human-powered or NN-powered) sooner or later get arbitraged away.
