I think Lemmy has a problem with history in general, since most people on here have degrees/training in STEM. I see a lot of inaccurate “pop history” shared on here, and a lack of understanding of historiography/how historians analyze primary sources.
The rejection of Jesus’s historicity seems to be accepting C S Lewis’s argument - that if he existed, he was a “lunatic, liar, or lord,” instead of realizing that there was nothing unusual about a messianic Jewish troublemaker in Judea during the early Roman Empire.
Downvote for stating “facts” without sources.
Have you heard about this dude named Brian?
I’m Brian, and my wife is too!
Jesus-ish existed? Just a thought. A little of this a little if that. Some of these & those. Perhaps a few of the other things and ta da. An individuals legacy can change with every generation. The fish gets bigger every time my Dad recounts the tale of the monster Largemouth Bass he caught.
Joseph Smith was real too. Why should anyone care
Well, the followers of Joseph Smith spent a great deal of money back in the early ‘oughts against gay marriage. Perhaps looking into things like the Book of Abraham (a “translated” copy of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which wasn’t able translated until after the Rosetta Stone, and clearly does not say what Smith said it did), genetic testing of Native American tribes showing no Middle East inheritance, the various anachronisms (iirc, pre Columbian horses?) and the precedence of “KJV’ism’s” in the text might be important. We can debunk a lot of what Smith said, which might have significance for a religion that has a stranglehold over the politics of Utah.
Religious cults don’t care about reality.
Jesus doesn’t have to be a single historical person.
Never knew Jesus is plural from Jesu
Hmm… let me get this straight.
Your unpopular opinion™ is that someone named Jesus may have existed around the same time that all the stories about Jesus Christ of Nazareth were written?
and that “most mainstream scholars of the era” agree with OP
Saying Jesus existed but biblical events didn’t happen is meaningless. And since we know the bible is full of crap, it doesn’t really matter if a Jesus existed or not. That specific fairy tale Jesus is made up. Maybe it is a dramatization of real events, maybe it is a mix of stories and legends about several different people, maybe it was fabricated, it doesn’t really matter. Saying “Jesus existed” is just feeding the apologists, and there are so many Christian historians than I cannot take claims like that seriously.
I’ve always understood historical Jesus as a concession, and not a reflection of confirmed existence.
Just want to add a couple of things
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There were no extra-Biblical references to Pontius Pilate until 1961. Now imagine how much documentation must have surrounded the Roman prefect of Judea. All of it gone, except for a bit of limestone.
Also an argument (I think I heard it from Hitchens, but not sure): We know that the Nativity story is bogus because the Census that was supposed to bring Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem is anachronistic. And we know that it’s important that Jesus be from Bethlehem (City of David) because the Messiah was prophesized to be from there.
So the question is: if were making up Jesus from whole cloth, why not just make him Jesus of Bethlehem? Why go to the trouble unless Jesus of Nazareth was something people were already familiar with?
I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding your 1961 statement, but from Wiki on Pontius Pilate:
Surviving evidence includes coins he minted and the Pilate Stone inscription. Ancient sources such as Josephus, Philo, and
the Gospel of Lukedocument several incidents of conflict between Pilate and the Jewish population, often citing his insensitivity to Jewish religious customs. The Christian gospels, as well as Josephus and Tacitus, attribute the crucifixion of Jesus to Pilate’s orders.The Pilate Stone is where his 1961 date comes from. The Josephus bit that mentions Pilate is the “Testimonium Flavianum” which is the reference to Jesus in Josephus that was likely edited by a later source. It does look like the numismatic evidence (coins) are ridiculously common though.
Often, coins are the only evidence of historical figures. Lots of petty kings that never have anything written about them, but do have coins.
Can someone share a link or two that confirms the existence of historical Jesus?
UsefulCharts just released a youtube video on the topic. The argument is basically “the earliest documents referencing Jesus aren’t explicit that he was real but on the other hand it wasn’t long before he was treated as real”. Basically there wasn’t a lot of time for myth to be reinterpreted as history.
Personally I’m ambivalent, Sherlock Holmes wasn’t real but he may have had a real effect on criminology. People may confuse his historicity. Compared to Houdini.
I was under the impression that historians more didn’t have any evidence to discount the existence of the guy than so much as distinct records of him, so because of Christianity it’s generally accepted a guy existed. But it’s been a while since I looked into it and my memory is kinda shit, I’m getting old.
This passage in Josephus’s Antiquities would be the best evidence outside of the New Testament texts. Josephus refers to “Jesus, who was called Christ”’s brother James being executed, likely due to his role in leading an early group of Christians.
You can also read Bart Ehrman for some analysis and arguments from a professional historian.
Context: Josephus was born 4 years after Jesus’ supposed death, and he wrote his Antiquities some 60 years after that…
I don’t know if that’s trustworthy in archaeology / history, but that doesn’t feel very trustworthy to me.
I dunno, Rebecca Skloot was born 21 years after Henrietta Lacks died, but The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks is still widely hailed as one of the best and most accurate biographies ever written. Jonathan Eig was born 4 years before MLK died, but his biography of the man from a couple years ago (55 years after King’s death) isn’t spurned. Heck, Ron Chernow missed Alexander Hamilton by a century and a half but it was so faithful that even the rap opera based on it was hailed for its accuracy.
Doesn’t seem to me that such a range is necessarily disqualifying of the account.
Those seem like poor examples, contemporary authors have access to vastly more resources.
Maybe. Vastly more disinformation to identify, too, though.
The passage refers to the killing of James, which would have happened sometime in the 60s CE, only about three decades before the writing of the Antiquities and during a time when Josephus was alive.
Who fucking cares?
Why do we care about history in general?
It provides us with some patterns in human behavior, things that cannot really be studied in a lab. You could approach early Christianity as a way to better understand mass movements, or the different coping strategies of an oppressed/conquered people. You could read the text of the New Testament and ask yourself why these ideas were appealing and what that might say about human nature.
As part of the study of ideas, Christianity is a really interesting expression of how Hellenistic thought mixed with Judaism. There’s a reason a lot of Neoplatonists were Christian.
The early conflicts with Judaism as Christianity developed its own identity have pretty far reaching impacts, with the death of Jesus being placed on all Jews and being used to justify atrocities to this current day.
Or, as a guy that thinks about the Roman Empire at least a couple times a day, it’s a great window into the experience of a backwater Roman province that eventually revolted and was absolutely crushed.
Jesus is not history in general, and I still don’t fucking care.
Because people made religion out of it? A religion from a Canaanitic people, who never set food in the desert they claim to have walked in for 40 years, but hey, we can’t all worship the same Canaanitic Storm God Elohim, amirite?
Yeah, cults are gonna cult. People made religion out of spaghetti and comets. I still don’t care if Jesus ever existed.
I don’t necessarily care if Buddha or Carl Sagan existed, but I like the philosophy that is attached to them.
Okay, now do Atlantis.
The “evidence” for Atlantis is Plato’s Timaeus and Critias, which is pretty clear in context to be a myth Plato is using to make a philosophical point. He’s not claiming it is historical, and it connects to Plato’s ideal of a “Noble Lie.”
…there was nothing unusual about a messianic Jewish troublemaker in Judea during the early Roman Empire.
I bet he was a member of the Judean People’s Front.
Fuck off! He’d definitely have been a member of the Peoples front of Judea
I think Loretta would have a problem with that.
Splitters
I think you’re both wrong. I think he just always looked on the bright side of life.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vxOBbYSzk
Esoterica - Who was the historical Jesus?
I don’t think most serious scholars would swear that a Jesus existed at that time and place, but would say that it is much more likely than not based on the confirming evidence from outside of the Christian faith. At some point you need to decide how much evidence is enough for any ancient topic. There’s no particular reason that I’ve found credible enough to convince me that there WASN’T a historical figure there, even though I absolutely refuse to accept any magic or miracles.
That’s the thing though —you shouldn’t need convincing that he wasn’t real. You should need convincing the he was real. I don’t have any particular reason to doubt he existed, but equally I don’t have a good reason to believe it either, so I just don’t. That’s the default position.
I don’t need to doubt he existed to also not hold a belief that he did.
